Legislature(2007 - 2008)BELTZ 211
01/22/2007 01:30 PM Senate JUDICIARY
Audio | Topic |
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Start | |
SB19 | |
SB20 | |
SB13 | |
Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
*+ | SB 19 | TELECONFERENCED | |
*+ | SB 20 | TELECONFERENCED | |
*+ | SB 13 | TELECONFERENCED | |
SB 13-BAN CONSULTING CONTRACTS WITH LEGISLATORS 2:16:55 PM CHAIR HOLLIS FRENCH announced SB 13 to be up for consideration. SENATOR GARY STEVENS, Sponsor, described SB 13 as a simple straightforward bill. It prohibits legislators from providing consulting services to anyone in the private sector or accepting consulting fees from anyone in the private sector. Noting the newspaper accounts of legislators who may have been consultants and may discredit the Legislature, he said his goal is to protect the image of an institution that is approaching th its 50 year. To accomplish that there must be a bond of trust with the public. SENATOR STEVENS related that it has been difficult to establish a definition for "consultant" and although he was very clear about what he wanted to accomplish when he began writing the bill, he was unsure whether he had achieved his goal. Nonetheless, the conversation is worthwhile and hopefully the committee will flesh the idea out in either this bill or another. Now is the time to confront the issue of ethics and get some meaningful legislation on the books. SENATOR STEVENS said he took no particular ownership in the bill and the suggestion for an omnibus bill may or may not work. In conclusion he said the bill is simply: "An Act prohibiting a legislator from providing consulting services to a person in the private sector or agreeing to accept consulting fees from a person in the private sector." That's all it does, he said. 2:20:21 PM CHAIR FRENCH noted his earlier conversation with the sponsor regarding a definition for consultant and said two synonyms that come to mind are "advisor" and "analyst". If this bill were to pass, he could imagine that APOC filings would begin to reflect those services. Parenthetically he agreed with the thrust of the bill because legislators should not trade on their office. Expertise, special knowledge, or business acumen may be exercised outside the capitol building, but how would you handle those synonyms, he questioned. SENATOR STEVENS responded he worked with the bill drafter to come up with a definition of what is and isn't included and he has been unable to find a workable definition in state regulation. Nonetheless, he asked the committee not to water it down or create loopholes by saying an analyst or advisor is okay because that would weaken the bill. The reality is that the activity is either allowed or it isn't. When a person is considering whether or not to run for a legislative office, then they ought to decide whether they want to so one job or the other. As long as the state has citizen law makers there will be fewer people who are available to serve because of the financial struggle. It's not his goal to change the system, but the rules about crossing the line to become an advisor must be very clear. 2:23:22 PM SENATOR GENE THERRIAULT asked if he had discussed with legislative legal the notion of prohibiting any business that would entail providing services that are outside the person's specific training or professional expertise. He suggested there ought to be a way to cast the net broadly and still let people conduct private business. 2:25:10 PM SENATOR STEVENS said he had no objection to expanding the bill, but the test question ought to be whether the legislator would have gotten the job if he or she was not a member of the Legislature. The problem is how to write that into the law. SENATOR THERRIAULT responded an economist who is also a legislator is required to disclose to APOC payments in excess of $1,000 and the time spent for that remuneration. The public will be able to determine whether the pay is commensurate with the profession. It's the terms "consultant" and "advisor" that are murky. The remuneration for that work can be astronomical and cause the general public concern. 2:27:07 PM SENATOR STEVENS said he couldn't agree more, but the problem is in the details. He questioned how you tell when an economist legislator is hired for his or her professional expertise and not for their legislative experience. 2:27:25 PM SENATOR CHARLIE HUGGINS asked what a legislator's status would be if he or she was a consultant before becoming a legislator if SB 13 were to pass. SENATOR STEVENS replied the individual would need to make a choice between being a legislator and being a consultant. SENATOR HUGGINS remarked that the committee would ultimately need to determine whether or not it's legal to ban someone from pursuing his or her profession while serving as a legislator. SENATOR STEVENS replied he, as a retired university professor, cannot teach for remuneration while he is serving as a legislator. SENATOR HUGGINS commented on a conversation he had regarding professional licensing and business conduct. It's what the person does with the license and the compensation that makes the difference. 2:30:26 PM SENATOR BILL WIELECHOWSKI said he can see two issues regarding consulting services. The first is legislators receiving exorbitant fees for providing services that they may or may not be qualified to do. The second is legislators helping others with the legislative process. He questioned what other states are doing. 2:31:28 PM SENATOR STEVENS questioned whether it makes any difference if the fees received are exorbitant if the activity is wrong. As far as legislators helping others with the legislative process, they already do that as part of the job. 2:32:21 PM SENATOR LESIL McGUIRE advised that California decided to have professional law makers address these same ethical issues. Although the tradeoff is huge for some individuals, the decision is that if you want to be a public servant then other economic opportunities are on hold. Two hypothetical examples come to mind, she said. First, suppose a legislator has a professional license as a real estate agent and he or she works for a politically active company. Even though the licensee isn't performing the day to day work as a realtor, she questioned what might happen or what the perception might be if a piece of legislation were introduced that would have a tremendous financial impact on that realty company. The second example involves a company vice-president, which is a position that can be a catchall and include many or few different duties and titles. There certainly could be an instance where someone is promoted to vice-president of Company A with full knowledge that he or she will be in Juneau for most of the year. That might be very acceptable from the company's standpoint and the business might function very well without the vice-president doing any day to day work. She assured members she isn't casting aspersions and she doesn't disagree with the thrust of the bill, but the deeper question is whether or not you want citizen law makers. If the answer is yes then how do you handle the real conflicts that aren't always apparent. There's always a tradeoff and the public understands that, but whatever your title there's always someone who can do the job as well or better simply because they're at work and doing the job rather than also serving as a legislator. We have to decide where to draw the line, but it's bigger than just consulting, she said. 2:37:09 PM SENATOR STEVENS agreed that many people consult, advise, and analyze in their daily job so it's difficult to parse what they may be doing as part of the job and what they may be doing as a legislator. Although it seemed simple at the onset, there really is no simple solution. Adding exceptions creates loopholes and the law would lose its teeth. But changing to professional law makers as California has done, wouldn't necessarily guarantee ethical behavior either. 2:38:14 PM SENATOR THERRIAULT remarked those concerns support the suggestion that this issue could be dealt with under an umbrella. The language in SB 20 would address the example of the real estate agent. If the person really did the work of an active realtor, then the time spent and the monetary gain would be disclosed under the language proposed in SB 20. SENATOR McGUIRE pointed out that she used the example of the real estate agent because there is an exception for state or federal professional licenses. SENATOR THERRIAULT said perhaps that language ought to be added to the statute. CHAIR FRENCH advised that the committee would revisit SB 20 on Wednesday. SENATOR STEVENS commented that adding to the reporting requirements is an option and it ought to be very clear what the requirements are, but something is very wrong if we get caught up in nit-picking and we miss the big picture. 2:41:00 PM CHAIR FRENCH found no further questions or testimony and closed public testimony. SENATOR THERRIAULT noted that he had an email to distribute to the committee. It was from Mr. Metcalfe and was related to the topic of ethics. 2:42:06 PM CHAIR FRENCH announced he would hold SB 13 in committee.
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